Renata Effern: "I am building my Russia" Automatic translate

The conversation with Renata Effern , chairman of the Turgenev Society in Baden Baden, is interesting because of the possibility of such a view of Russian culture, which cannot be called either external or internal. As if this conditional pupil is located strictly on the border of two cultures - Russia and Europe. Interview took Alexey Firsov with the support of Julia Gladkova .

Material prepared by the project
Center for Russian Culture Studies

The chairman of the Turgenev Society of Germany Renata Effern has no Slavic roots. But being a German, by her own admission, often thinks in Russian.

Renata was born in 1936. Her father, an oilman by profession, during the war developed Caucasian oil fields for the German army and died near Pyatigorsk. Renata herself in the documentary of Elena Yakovich German Crossword. Translation difficulties ”says that in Baden-Baden of her youth, war and fascism did not play any role. Questions to the generation of fathers and guilt arose later, in 1968, when the protest student movement began. Renata then studied at the university and began to study Russian.

Renata Effern is the author of the books Three-Headed Eagle: Russian Guests in Baden-Baden, Russian Fates of Baden-Baden, Hurray, Russians Return! In 2006, she was awarded the Pushkin Medal by presidential decree.

Alexey Firsov met with Ms. Effern in Baden-Baden.

Without Borders

- How Russian culture and Russian people are perceived from the outside, but by a professional. Could you, as a person who has been engaged in Russian literature for many years, name the main components that distinguish Russian culture from the culture of other peoples and nations? What, in fact, makes our culture Russian, in your opinion?

- You know that in Baden-Baden, Russian culture is perceived through literature, which plays a very large role here. It connects us with Russia, first of all, the literature of the XIX century. I always say that in the 19th century three nations played a big role in our city. The French brought us a casino, they were directors of all these institutions. If not for the French, Baden-Baden would have remained a small provincial town. The British brought the sport. The first tennis court in Germany appeared in our city, as did the first golf course at the beginning of the 20th century. The British intensively engaged in horse racing, and horse racing here are also very important events. And thanks to the Russians, we became a famous city in Russia precisely in connection with literature.

The first Russian who wrote the book here, the novel “Marital happiness,” was Leo Tolstoy, although this work is not very well known. Dostoevsky wrote the novel "The Player" here. And, of course, Ivan Sergeevich Turgenev, who wrote the novel “Smoke” here. The first in our city international cultural center was created in Turgenev’s house, where they spoke many languages: French, German, Russian, Spanish… This is very important for us, because we have long wanted to create a Russian cultural center in our city, as it was in the house of Turgenev.

- And still I would like to return to your personal perception of Russian literature. When you read Russian novels, do you have the feeling that this literature belongs to a certain cultural layer, tradition? If there is such a feeling, then what makes literature Russian for you?

- I must admit that I know little German literature. And Russian literature is so wide that life alone is not enough to cover everything. But the most important fact is everything in Russia, including literature, on a very wide scale. All your novels raise a lot of big questions. European literature is not so large-scale, it is more streamlined.

- With a few exceptions. Thomas Mann, for example, with his epic "canvases"…

“Yes, but Thomas Mann cannot be read like a Russian writer.”

- True, he is very meticulous, with great attention to detail, very orderly.

- Yes Yes. By the way, Thomas Mann, as far as I know, loved Turgenev very much and said: “If I had the chance to have only five books on an uninhabited island, one of them would be Turgenev’s Fathers and Sons.”

And in order to understand Russia, including Russian literature, one must travel, for example, by train to Siberia, as I have done more than once in order to understand the distances.

- And how do you understand Russia from a closed compartment of a train?

- I looked out the window. I spoke with different people. A train is like a hotel: there are a lot of people, you talk, walk along the corridors, see. Hundreds of kilometers you can see nothing but the natural landscape. We in Germany say: when you travel by train, the locomotive is in one city, and the last car is still in the previous one. The same goes for literature. Everything is very orderly and on a small scale. You are very free, and everyone can develop on this literature as he wants. There are no borders.

Russian freedom and lack of freedom

- When did you make your first trip across Russia by train?

- The first time I went to Siberia, when I was 24 years old, back in the days of the Soviet Union. For us West Germans, a trip by rail was the only opportunity to speak with Russian people.

Later I still returned to Siberia, but the first trip was the most important.

- And where did you get to?

- To Irkutsk, to Baikal. You might be interested. When I got married, I told my beloved husband: you are going to Siberia with me in the winter. He liked this. Such trips in Europe are not possible.

- And you think that such an imprint on Russian literature was left by the Russian space?

- A person who was born and lives in Russia cannot live like a German. Since childhood, he got used to long distances.

- Do you think this infinity does not contain a certain danger, the risk of incontinence, the absence of any firm norms, law-abiding behavior?

- I can say that in Russia I feel like a freer person. No limits. I can go wherever I want, all on a large scale: a circle of friends, cities in which I have been. In Russia it is difficult to “see the horizon”.

- With such freedom of spaces and perception, Russia throughout its history has been very unfree socially. Do you see a contradiction here?

- Of course I see. But what I am saying is feelings, not rational. I feel that way in Russia. There are strange things. For example, at passport control at an airport queue, a stern man in a booth looks at me. What happened? A stern man laughs and says: welcome to Russia. And I feel at home in Russia. I have more Russian friends than Germans. My only good German friend is my spouse. When I introduce him to someone in Russia, I always say: I introduced you to the best German.

Almost all of my close friends are Russians. I will not say anything new, but your hospitality is an important factor. Doors are always open: please come. We don’t have such a thing, even after leaving school parents leave their parents forever, and we see them, maybe once a year. We simply don’t have friends like you. In Germany, everyone lives for himself. This is my house, my apartment, and besides this, maybe there is nothing.

- But in Europe different social movements are very developed: environmental, in defense of minorities, for example. People do not separate themselves from society.

- Yes. In this sense, my task is Turgenev’s society. You know that four years later marks the 200th anniversary of his birth, and we want to have a big holiday in Germany, in France and, of course, in Moscow. We want to cooperate so that Turgenev is read more than now. Of the three greats — Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, and Turgenev — Ivan Sergeevich is the least read.

Only Russians

- When did the Turgenev Society form in Baden-Baden?

- In 1992. The reason was this: opposite the Brenners Hotel in Baden-Baden was a small wooden house. They said that Turgenev once worked in it. The hotel wanted to build a large complex and demolish this wooden house. Everyone who was interested in the history of the city gathered there. It seems that I was the only one who knew about Turgenev. I was immediately elected president of the Turgenev Society, we wanted to save this house, but did not have time. And then I found out that Turgenev never worked in this house.

At first, 20-30 Baden people entered society. There are a lot of people who are interested in the history of their city, including Russian history. And they entered the Turgenev society.

Our first task was to introduce the residents of the city to the Russian history of Baden-Baden. Until that moment, no one here had read Turgenev’s novels, did not know that Dostoevsky and Leo Tolstoy were in the city. I conducted many excursions in German on the topic "Russian Baden-Baden." It is very important for us that intellectuals in Russia know: we study the Russian history of Baden-Baden. There were no French, English, American writers, only Russians.

- How many people are in the Turgenev society now?

- More than a hundred people. The annual fee is 50 euros. A member of the community gets access to all our events. For example, we always celebrate the Old New Year. Russian music, champagne…

"Metropol" for a student

- And how do you feel about this opinion: Russian art abroad has more weight than in Russia itself, where people already read a little of the classics?

“I can’t say that, because all the Russians I know read classics.” They are doing the same thing as me. For example, the Moscow Turgenev Museum on Ostozhenka, the Turgenev library.

- And to the thesis that Russian culture is, first of all, Orthodox culture, what is your attitude?

“This is interesting to us, but we don’t perceive it that way.” Ivan Sergeevich Turgenev attended church here, but was an atheist, as they say.

- You remembered that for the first time you visited Russia back in Soviet times. And do you see the difference between the Soviet people you met then and the Russians today?

“It was interesting to me that I, a German woman who spoke Russian, was always perceived as a citizen of the GDR. And I said: no, I could show my passport to Germany. And everyone was wondering: why do I speak Russian?

“You were supposed to be a scout?”

- There is such an expression in German: a person has blue eyes, that is, he believes everything that they say to him, a naive person. I am like that, and therefore nothing terrible has ever happened to me. During the Soviet Union, I was a student in Moscow and lived at the Metropol Hotel, because the best was always offered to Western tourists. And I thought: what hotels in the USSR! There were always at least two people who asked if they needed anything to help them. Of course, in Germany no one gave me such attention. Now I understand that this is because I am from the West, but then I thought: what beautiful and good people are here!

- Now it seems to you hypocrisy or a form of hospitality?

- I think this is a lot of fun, because I have never been an important person. I was just interested in Russian literature, and no one could learn anything interesting from me during the USSR. They also understood this, apparently. They even decided that I was a little stupid, so everything was fine with me.

My biggest student dream was to study for six months or a year at Moscow State University. It was a dream for all Slavists, but for West Germany at Moscow State University there were five places a year. When I see Moscow State University today, I think: hello, I am here, although I have not studied with you.

100% European

- Why did you choose Turgenev?

- When the borders were opened in the late 80s and early 90s, the first Russian guests began to appear here. I conducted city tours for them and wrote a book, which was published in 1997. And then I found out just how important Tadenenev was for Baden-Baden. He was not a guest, like Leo Tolstoy, Goncharov or Dostoevsky, who came here for a few days or weeks. Turgenev lived in our city, loved him very much and spoke excellent German. And everyone respected him very much. You know that in the West Turgenev is respected, perhaps much more than in Russia. The fact is that Turgenev’s house had an international cultural center, and Ivan Sergeyevich himself was a very well-mannered person. He loved Europe and was European. When you come to us, you say that you are going to Europe. And we were taught at the university that Europe extends to the Urals. And I jokingly say when I go to Moscow that I go to Europe, but this is true. Although another Europe, but still Europe. And for me, one hundred percent European is Ivan Sergeyevich Turgenev.

- There is a version that Turgenev, in addition to spending good time in Baden, communicating with Polina Viardot, and so on, performed special, reconnaissance functions. Do you share this hypothesis?

- I can’t imagine such a thing, although I heard this version several times. As I understand it Turgenev, this is impossible. He had a very gentle character. Is Turgenev a scout? No.

- And what, in your opinion, held him here in Baden most of all? The resort, Pauline Viardot…

- Only Pauline. When they say: it’s bad that Turgenev lived so little in Russia and spent so much time in Europe, it must be understood that there were no political reasons for this. Only Pauline, exclusively her.

- How do you assess the “triangle” of Turgenev with Polina Viardot and her husband from the standpoint of traditional morality?

“This is not so terrible for us.” When I show the Russians the monument to Turgenev in Baden-Baden and say that they lived together, many react exactly like that: horror. But firstly, it is the 19th century. Then it was almost normal. I think that none of those who knew Turgenev and Mrs. Viardot thought it was scary. Mr. Viardot and Turgenev were very good friends, they worked together. I must admit that I do not like Madame Viardot much. I think that she was a very moody woman. My ancestors in Baden-Baden also respected Mr. Turgenev, but they did not like Madame Viardot. She had a very strong character, and the two men — my beloved Turgenev and Mr. Viardot — were gentle.

- That is, they complemented each other?

- Yes, they hunted together, translated, both loved Madame Viardot, but it was a completely peaceful affair. Turgenev was a member of this family. What role did he really play in this family? You can write a book about this.

- Your ancestors knew Turgenev, and you are hereditary Baden-Baden, right?

- I’m talking about ancestors in a figurative sense. These are the people who lived here then. I think they respected Turgenev for not being as Russian as Dostoevsky or Leo Tolstoy, who played in the casino. Then people talked a lot about those who played in the casino, but Turgenev was a completely different person.

- Didn’t you lose a lot?

- He did not play at all, he hated casinos. If there had been no Mrs. Viardot, he would not have lived in Baden-Baden, only because of her he came here. Today, German newspapers constantly write about rich Russians. They no longer play in our casino, but still buy houses, apartments, like Russians in the 19th century. And newspapers associate these Russians exclusively with money. Turgenev did not belong to such people. Of course, he was rich, but when he finished building his villa, he decided to sell it. And who bought it? Mr. Viardot.

- I heard that Turgenev did not have enough money for furniture…

- Yes. But this once again shows that Turgenev, Polina and Mr. Viardot were one family, the money was shared.

Resentment Turgenev

- And why the current Russians do not play in the Baden casino, what has changed in character?

- I think they are in Baden-Baden looking for something else. They want to relax. In our city, silence and low crime are most valued today. Russian millionaires can walk without security, for them it is important. All hotels have health and beauty centers. This is exactly what is most important for many Russians here - to rest calmly and think about health.

- What are your favorite stories about Turgenev related to Baden-Baden? Some of the most vivid scenes that showed him here as a person.

- His dog played a very big role in Turgenev’s life. All Baden-Baden people knew this dog, she was very free, she could walk where she wanted. But if she could not find her way home, the townspeople said: this is Turgenev’s dog, we will show her the way.

When Turgenev wrote the novel “Smoke”, he showed a lot of bad things in Russians, including those who lived here and played a big role in politics. And what I never understood: he was surprised that the reaction to the novel was very negative. All Russians stopped inviting him, for example, to hunt. And he did not understand this.

“But he made fun of the Russian people who live here.” It is natural that they stopped inviting him.

- Yes, they recognized themselves, but Turgenev was surprised. Maybe the fact that Prince Menshikov or Prince Gagarin stopped inviting him was not so scary for Turgenev. But the fact that all Russians stopped inviting to hunt was terrible for Turgenev. He loved hunting, went for a wild boar.

- And what were the relations within the writing community here? They met here, Turgenev with Dostoevsky, for example.

“They met, but you know that Dostoevsky advised Turgenev to buy a telescope in order to better see what is happening in Russia.” And after this meeting, they did not speak with each other for ten years.

I know that Turgenev met here with Goncharov. And all the writers were very unhappy with this novel. Turgenev was surprised. I do not understand why.

- The writer often thinks that he creates some kind of autonomous world in his work. There is such a feature of Russian literature: my work is my sphere. And it cannot affect people who are in real life, because creativity is one thing, and real life is another. Perhaps he had something like this logic?

- At one point, there were no Russians in the cultural center, which was in Turgenev’s house. The French came, the British, but not the Russians…

- What did this cultural center do?

- In this house, Mrs. Viardot created operettas, and Turgenev wrote a libretto to them. The Viardot family performed these operettas, Turgenev also played a role there. All people who were engaged in culture, except for Russians, were visiting Turgenev’s house. There were people who praised these operettas, but to me they seem a little ridiculous.

Own and foreign Russian

- Do you now see some kind of correlation between the characters of Russian literature and the Russian people you meet today? Do you admit that people from the novel may be on the street?

- Yes. When we were students, we grouped people as characters in novels. But mainly from the nineteenth century, although we studied Soviet literature, it also seemed very interesting to us.

- I also love this expression "literary man", which bears the stamp of the character of a literary character…

- Many of my friends say that I’m not quite German, but Russian. Although I had never lived in Russia for a long time, I was a guest for a maximum of ten days.

- Interestingly, did you stay at the level of classics in your studies of Russian literature or are you also trying to follow current trends?

- Not at all. Russian literature is so wide, even one century - it is already so much that I do not even have time to read everything. But this is only one part. I believe that this is not my task - to understand modern Russian literature. I am not able to understand it, because I am no longer young. If I were thirty or forty years old, I would read all your modern writers. But now this is not my language, very alien. For me, Russia is such an ideal, I am building my Russia for myself. Modern literature in this sense is very alien, I do not understand it.

- And where did you study the Russian language?

- At the University of Freiburg. When the first Russian groups appeared here in Baden-Baden in the early 1990s, my husband said: it seems your turn. During the Soviet Union, with my knowledge of the Russian language in Germany, I had very few opportunities. And my husband said: when the borders open and there will be Russian guests, you will show them the city and tell them.

I had two tasks, one of them was to write a book about the Russian history of Baden-Baden. I learned that a small newspaper was published here, where every guest is mentioned, who was in the city in the 19th century, where he lived and how much time he spent here. I found that all the Russians that I knew about were in Baden-Baden in the century before last. Politicians, historians, nobles, emperors… And writers, of course.

My other task was to show the city to Russian guests. When I had the first Russian group, I was terribly afraid. I had no practice speaking Russian.

- Russians did not teach language at the university?

- No. And I asked my husband to come with me in case I fainted. But everything was very good. One Russian asked me: who is the man who stood next to you throughout the tour? I replied: my husband. They laughed very much and said: send him home, we are not dangerous people.

It took me two years to be able to speak Russian fluently. This was the moment when I was able to think in Russian.

- Do you think in Russian?

- Now yes. But then I was constantly translating. That was hard. Now I think more in Russian, even when I speak German. This is the content of my life.