In search of Holy Russia Automatic translate

Alexei Kozyrev , deputy dean of the Faculty of Philosophy at Moscow State University, is convinced that Russian culture basically contains something hidden, almost unknowable to a foreigner, and this something has a name - Holy Russia. In a new format for the Center for Research on Russian Culture, a collective interview with a philosopher was discussed by Aleksey Firsov, Ekaterina Shipova, Aleksey Serditov and Dmitry Chernikov.

Material prepared by the project
Center for Russian Culture Studies

A. Serditov: Holy Russia - what is it in the historical aspect and in the modern? Is this the concept of religious, national, folklore?

- Today, this concept, it seems to me, is nevertheless more connected with the Orthodox context, because we constantly meet it in religious discourse. So, as it is present in Tropar to the new martyrs of Russia: "Holy Russia, preserve the Orthodox faith." Holy Russia, first of all, is connected with the history of Russia. Generally speaking, the Russian God is the words that are attributed to Mamaia. When Mamai was defeated in the Kulikovo field, he said: "Great is the Russian God." Actually, it went from there in a variety of contexts, starting from the functioning of this idiom in the official ideology of Nicholas I or the ironic poem of Vyazemsky: “God of snowstorms, god of potholes, god of painful roads, stations, cockroach headquarters, here he is, here he is, the Russian God ". That did not stop Vyazemsky later, in 1848, after the French Revolution, writing a completely sincere patriotic and not at all trivial poem "Holy Russia", that is, being at the same time with Russian skepticism and Russian pathos, although at different times in his life.

Therefore, I think that today for some it is a cultural metaphor, for some it’s buggy. Someone wants a modern technocratic, industrial, legal, cosmopolitan state, and not Holy Russia. On the contrary, another party, for example, Oleg Platonov and his Institute of Russian Civilization, perceive Holy Russia not only as a metaphor, but as an absolute reality that we must reckon with and from which we can explain many facts of Russian history. For example, the victory of Stalin in 1941 near Moscow. Why was Hitler defeated? Yes, because I contacted Holy Russia, which is personified by the image of Matrona of Moscow, not so long ago canonized with incredible speed and, it seems, without fulfilling all the necessary procedural decisions of the church commission for canonization. The canonization itself was highly doubtful, but it should be noted that there is popular veneration and there is a popular belief that it was she who persuaded Stalin not to leave Moscow in 1941. Here it is, Holy Russia, which speaks to us in the language of modernity, let’s say so. Up to some kind of parody of quite serious people, such as the late philosopher G. D. Gachev, who wrote a series of books about national images of the world and, in particular, said that Russia is a woman, so she always started enemy, and in 1812, and in 1941, so deep as to feel. But then she pushed him away from herself.

A. Firsov: Who is so witty?

- Georgy Dmitrievich Gachev, who is by no means a marginal person, but now he is almost a classic of Russian cultural studies. By the way, the same Gachev had an interesting theory of the elements. We have enough space, fire and earth, so we need light and wind. And the elements of Russia according to Gachev are the light wind, which he united in one word - "Sveter". He formed such neologisms as “nature”, interpreting the national-cultural landscape of Russian civilization. The word "holy" in its European roots is related to the word "bright." Actually, in the names of Russian princes we come across the word "bright", "brightest prince", this is not far from the name of the Patriarch - His Holiness or bishop - saint. The words “sanctification” and “illumination” generally sound almost the same. Only one letter distinguishes them.

The very name "Rus", "Russian" is consonant with the word "blond", again, here we hear the presence of something light, white. White Russia, Belarus, the White Tsar, Belovodye like other land that wanderers are looking for, where the “invisible city” on earth is, the kingdom of God on earth. Therefore, it is very interesting to compare these connotations of holiness, light, and lordship in the concept of "Holy Russia."

A. Firsov: Nations, people a little immodestly call themselves saints. What was it based on? In Orthodoxy, which already autonomously existed and therefore required some confirmation in relation to Catholicism and Islam? Or on some other arguments?

- Modesty does not distinguish the people in the format of its formation, self-affirmation, it is going through a period when it considers itself chosen, exceptional, almost God-chosen. We see that this concept of "Holy Russia" begins to function precisely during the formation of the Moscow state, the collection of lands around Moscow. The philosopheme “Moscow - Third Rome” arises under Basil the Third, then under Ivan the Terrible, that is, under the two Russian princes who first call themselves the Tsar. The formation of the Moscow kingdom and the transformation of the Moscow principality into the Moscow kingdom is accompanied by the ideology of Moscow as the Third Rome, which is also unusually complex, multi-layered. This is not just a dream of the Eternal City that existed in the very idea of ​​Rome, but it is also the idea of ​​a nomadic city in the desert, a Christian kingdom that wanders and searches for its pier. Which does not last forever, because the Antichrist will come and conquer the world before the end of history. Therefore, Rome is, according to the teachings of St. St. Andrew of Caesarea with the City-Kingdom that keeps the world from coming of the Antichrist, the last Kingdom where the Church will find refuge.

A. Serditov: That is, there is some kind of parallel with modern Russia, which, according to the now popular version, is the last bastion of spirituality?

- Naturally. In general, they say that Russia is the archetype of the Third Rome. Interestingly, the idea of ​​the Third Rome was never the mainstream in Russian historiosophy. This is not to say that the idea of ​​the Third Rome was the dominant political idea of ​​the 16th or 17th centuries, when a split occurred. And Nikon did not build the New Rome, not the Temple of St. Peter, but the New Jerusalem, a copy of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. While it was Peter who built the New Rome, as if ironically opposing the idea that the Third is worth it, and the fourth should not happen. To be! - and Peter builds the fourth Rome on the Neva swamps. He creates the city of the Apostle Peter. Kazan Cathedral in St. Petersburg is a remake, a small copy of the Church of St. Peter in Rome. Rather, you can find architectural parallels between St. Petersburg and Rome than between Moscow and Rome. And the idea of ​​the Third Rome is being revived precisely in the case of the conservative turn of Alexander the Third, when in the coronation mass composed by P. I. Tchaikovsky and Apollon Maikov, these words again sound: “Two Rome fell, the third is standing, but the fourth should not be.” But now this is already such an imperial officialdom of Russia “frozen” by the two revolutions, which is about to collapse, like a colossus with feet of clay..

E. Shipova: As I understand it, Holy Russia today, no matter how it was taught, is, first and foremost, a mental construct. And I’m interested in the mobilization potential of this construct. Because it is clear that in the era of faults, insecurity, and difficulties, the role of nationalist ideas in a good sense and, accordingly, the influence of the dominant religion increase. In your opinion, is there a potential for this Holy Russia construct today? Can it become the core of mobilization ideology in today’s Russia? Or is it completely archaism?

- Of course there is.

E. Shipova: When and how can it be realized?

- I just met with our graduates-religious scholars of 2013. They came a little, one group, probably in quantity. I talked with my former student, a very bright, good guy, worked in a museum. Now he and his brother left for the village near Sergiev Posad, studying in absentia at the seminary and preparing for the adoption of the holy dignity. Despite the fact that they are both married, the fifth artist should be born to the brother-artist, this one has only two. That is, they perceive their Christian ministry not as a departure from the world, but rather, as a kind of churching of the world. Moreover, I absolutely did not know this person as an Orthodox activist. When he was a student, it was such a cultural trader, he studied Chukovsky, wrote poetry, presented me with a collection, an excellent poet, just like his brother - an excellent artist, student of Andriyaka.

Or take temple projects. To be honest, aesthetically these projects are far from always successful, sometimes they do not stand up to criticism. There is a program of “200 temples” in Moscow, similar programs exist in other cities, for example, in Saratov - “30 temples”. This program is more state than church. A program that is approved by agreement may also be for lobbying by secular authorities. Not so much public money is allocated there, but business resources are attracted. In Moscow, this program is led by Resin, and he personally feels it as his great merit and the last outpost of the power that he had under Luzhkov. With all this, although there is a public discussion of the program, there are people who criticize this construction (“we need dog pitches, we need a beautiful view from the window, not domes and bell ringing”), they are not the dominant voice of public opinion, even Moscow. And the construction of temples takes place with the active support of the townspeople who come there.

A. Firsov: The question is, can this concept or idea of ​​Holy Russia mobilize the nation as such?

- I said at the very beginning that today this concept is mainly found in the Orthodox, religious context.

E. Shipova: It seems to me that this concept is more potential-intensive and broad, and to some extent, confessional restriction somewhat narrows the possibilities of this construct. I say that because I encounter a lot of youth through my son. Young people, disappointed in Orthodoxy, are trying to find their idea through identification with a national idea. A whole galaxy has now hit paganism. Trying to invent something, looking for somewhere, some gurus appear. In general, a game that is not much different from a fantasy game, a hobbit. Moreover, for them, Russia is something that brings them together, that they pronounce seriously, an occasion for pride.

- Here we can say that the very concept of a saint is a very dual Latin concept - sacrum. On the one hand, it is high, illuminated, enlightened, sublimated and sublime. And on the other hand, it is damned, crushed, insignificant. The concept combines this in itself. What is French blasphemy called? Sacrilege, based on the word sacré. That is, this is a very ambiguous word. For example, it is not clear to us why E. Levinas in his works says that the sacred necessarily implies profanity, profanization. Pussy Riot thinks their stock is just like an inversion of the sacred. The Russian person cannot understand this, because for the Russian person, the sacred, sacred is definitely divine, high, not suggesting any sacrilege, no carnival, no "getting out of his pants," relatively speaking. This is a very interesting point. If we consider this archetypally, the sacred is connected with the concept of a bloody sacrifice. The sacred is based on sacrifice. We now live in such a humanistic civilization, so for us 300 people who died in a local conflict are a humanitarian catastrophe. But if you look at the history, including Russian, when the princes burned entire cities in internecine warfare, and thousands of people died there, and all this did not even come from the invasion of the tribes, but simply from the fratricidal massacre. Therefore, wars are often associated with the sacred. Holy War was written at the very beginning of the war. The war has not yet begun, but it has already been thematized as: a) the Great Patriotic War; b) The sacred. These are the names that were given to the war at the very beginning. This is not some kind of historical comprehension post factum, as in the case of the Patriotic War of 1812, which, if I am not mistaken, was later called the Patriotic War. Here it was at the source. In this sense, we see sacredness without sacred, sacredness without sacred: in order to be holy, to deal with holiness, we need bloody sacrifices. Whether the Church is here or not is quite introductory. You can, of course, remove the bishops from the dungeons, restore the patriarchate, and open temples. In fact, why did Stalin open temples? One of the reasons is that when the Nazis came, occupied the villages, they first opened temples. They understood that the temple is a phenomenon abolished by the Bolsheviks, the Communists. The leaders of the Nazis were in a very tense relationship with the Christian religion, but at least they understood this as an instrument of manipulation: since the Bolsheviks closed the temple, we came and opened the temple. What to do in broken villages? Close these temples back? Naturally, the state policy of the former seminarian Stalin was guided by the fact that it was necessary to use the sacred for manipulations, for one’s own interests, and maybe even hold the Ecumenical Council. There was such an idea in 1946. Let them bribe the local patriarchs, let them come to Moscow, and we will hold the eighth Ecumenical Council here. This idea really belonged to Stalin. N. N. Lisova made a film about this, he unearthed documents from the Kremlin archives up to the amounts and volumes of bribes that were sent to the local patriarchs.

D. Chernikov: Along with the concept of Holy Russia, there is such a stable phrase “mother Russia” - both here and in the West. The concept of Mother Russia is even more common now in the West than the concept of Holy Russia. And mother there is a pagan goddess. Do you think these are near-reaching concepts or do they complement each other?

- I think, of course, complement. Because the holiness of motherhood is a very important thing in the Russian popular faith. This we see in spiritual verses. Moreover, the holiness is not just female motherhood, but the holiness of any motherhood: the fruiting of the earth, livestock. It was considered a very great sin, a mortal sin, when a neighbor, for example, spoiled a neighbor’s crops or spoiled a neighbor’s cattle, because it was a sin against a mother of damp earth. This is an almost pagan concept associated with the Greek experience of Demeter, the goddess of the earth and fruiting. The words of Dostoevsky’s Lame Knee in The Demons brilliantly convey the essence and character of this popular faith: “Do you remember the Virgin, what? The mother of the earth is cheese. " Again Gachev writes that, turning to the language, we see: in Russia - the Motherland, the Volga-Mother. In Germany - Vaterland (Fatherland) and Rhine-father.

D. Chernikov: It seems to me that this “mother of earth cheese” is a more pagan, vivid image.

- Here is another concept, the concept of “invisible city” or “invisible city”, or “another kingdom”, which the heroes of Russian fairy tales are looking for. Evgeny Trubetskoy has a wonderful pamphlet written at the time of the revolution, “Another Kingdom and Its Seekers in a Russian Fairy Tale,” where these images of Ivan Tsarevich, seekers of a different city, are studied and explored. Sergei Nikolaevich Durilin had a book entitled The Church of the Invisible City. Russian people went to look for him anywhere: on the banks of the Cambodia River, on the Japanese islands. Melnikov-Pechersky, the author of famous novels about the Old Believers “In the forests” and “On the mountains”, has a publication “A Guide to Oponia. Notes by witness Mark, a monk of the Topozelo Monastery, about how Old Believers in search of the White Kingdom went to Japan. They sailed across the ocean, and when they saw the land, they expected that now a procession of monks would meet them by the procession and they would hear the ringing of bells. But they sailed and saw nothing, except the natives, very surprised. True, then St. Nicholas of Japan almost churches Japan, even many Japanese samurai were Orthodox, and he blessed them in the Russo-Japanese War of 1903. They even turned to Nicholas II on this occasion, who said: "Well, then, he is a shepherd, he must be with his flock." That is, in fact, Nicholas did not doubt the right of the Japanese archbishop to bless the Japanese in the war against the mother country. This search for an invisible city led Russian people to the shore of Lake Svetloyar, where according to legend, the city of Kitezh, which disappeared from the Tatars and did not want to surrender to a foreigner, sank (or disappeared, disappeared from view - there are different versions of this legend). Just Durylin in the two books “The Church of the Invisible City” and “The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh” describes these “parishioners” of the Kitezh church as follows: they are not only Orthodox, but sectarians of various kinds - Bespopovites, iconoclasts. One man chopped all the icons at home and said to his wife: “Why do you need this thing from God?” At the same time, he came to Svetloyar, was a God-seeker, and not a banal atheist, but he cannot be called an Orthodox person. The invisible city was a much broader concept than the Orthodox Church, which split in the 17th century, and the Old Believers considered themselves truly Orthodox at a time when they were banned. There is some other church, another truth, the images of these truth-seekers we find in Russian literature: Luke at Gorky, a host of other images.

A. Serditov: Isn’t this really the basis for the mental characteristics of the Russian people? Spiritual searches, intellectual drunkenness, eternal dissatisfaction with one’s place in society, in the world, if we talk about the country as a whole.

- And what is German mysticism or German philosophy? Is this not intellectual drinking? Father Pavel Florensky said well of Hegel: "This is drunkenness for oneself, preaching violent sobriety for others." I think that in any culture, especially in a culture romantic in nature, there is this element of drunkenness, intoxication, insanity, the search for certain transpersonal states, a certain overseas.

A. Serditov: I wouldn’t reduce the issue to drunkenness, it’s like an episode of searches.

- I realized drunkenness in a figurative sense, intoxication is not completely alcoholic, intoxication of the spirit that is looking for.

This coming city, it is both transcendental and immanent, as Father Sergius Bulgakov said. That is, he is coming, and the former, and abiding forever, somewhere in the depths he is already there, he is present, we must stick to it, we must protect it as a kind of bastion, protect it as a kind of fortress. The Orthodox consciousness is generally built on the principle of such a squad that protects the fortress. Serbs think about themselves the same way.

E. Shipova: I am nevertheless very interested in the possibility of modern refraction of this concept. Is there a feeling that the concept of "Holy Russia" is able to set some sacred meaning for the existence of the country, the existence of the people at the present stage? But at the same time, it creates the basis for dragging the thesis about the sacredness of power.

- V. A. Zhukovsky, for example, in a letter to P. A. Vyazemsky considers Holy Russia as our national treasure. Yes, we are a European state, we enter the peoples of Europe, but there is something that distinguishes us from Europe, this is our Holy Russia. The Orthodox monarch there, of course, is present in the idea of ​​God given, anointed power, but the idea of ​​Holy Russia is clearly not reduced to this power. The Slavophiles do not have any anointing at all. For Slavophiles, monarchical power is in the nature of a social contract, the monarchy does not have a sacred dimension. For this Khomyakova was criticized by father Pavel Florensky. Moreover, we meet with Konstantin Aksakov the idea that the Russian people are by nature non-state, he does not want to rule, he gives the sin to the tsar in order for the tsar to give him in return public freedoms, freedom of speech, for example.This is an embryonic theory of civil society. Slavophilism in the smallest degree can be considered as the ideology of sacred power and the sacred monarchy. Interestingly, it was Slavophilism in the 19th century that resurrected the dimension of Holy Russia in its, so to speak, everyday aspect. Holy Russia as rituals, traditions, heritage, dresses, huts - all of this we meet, the home style, the church just like the parish church.

E. Shipova: Does the idea of ​​the people-messiah, the very God chosen, remain? Because in the USSR, which formally destroyed religion, so many algorithms for the work of Orthodox postulates were used 100%, including the idea of ​​the people of the messiah.

- The proletariat was the first messiah, and then the Soviet people.

E. Shipova: Absolutely. He was the messiah, but a specific purpose was voiced. Now, given the mentality, frustration, lack of a single ideological core for unification, how much can this idea, the mission of the Russian people be tied to the theme of "Holy Russia"?

- For this, first of all, it is necessary to overcome the strong stratification of property that has formed over the past 20 years. The people must unite, which means that a real, and not a fictitious idea of ​​a common good should appear.

E. Shipova: All the same, should it be an idea of ​​a common good, a common mission? Or is the idea of ​​messianism possible without the idea of ​​a common good?

- I am afraid that today this idea simply would not be revolutionary.

A. Serditov: And without victims it is impossible. After all, it’s not enough for us to live with some kind of civilized goods, we are mobilized, we need to sacrifice something.

- In a fit of aspiration for Holy Russia, oligarchs will have to give out all their property. Bring all the looted gold, all thousands of its golden rings to the altar.

D. Chernikov: Prokhanov also spoke about this.

- I’m talking about this a bit differently than Prokhanov, in a dystopian-parody form, but in no other way. Otherwise, Holy Russia turns into some kind of condominium, some kind of reserve, a sedimentation tank for the poor. Say, we Ruble, and you Holy Russia. You can recall Alexander Sergeyevich Panarin, who wrote great about the civilization of the poor. Orthodox civilization is the civilization of the poor, therefore happiness is not in money, and man does not live by bread alone. This is a kind of rhetoric in favor of the poor, again not in favor of the common good. And if in favor of the common good, then it’s even hard to imagine what class and even geopolitical interests will be affected.

D. Chernikov: I have two questions. The first is eastern Ukraine, is it included in this concept? The second question in the continuation of the conversation. I’ll start with the remark that I can’t believe that this concept will become somehow mobilizing both for the masses and for intellectuals. But is its existence possible in the form of something pure, museum, to which you can come, cling to, cleanse yourself, remember your ancestors?

- I think that it is possible to exist as a museum, patriarchal, in the form of a return to the ancestors, to the history of your family, which should be read and accepted in integrity without division into "before 17 years" and "after 91 years." I don’t know how museum it is, because we are used to perceiving museums as a collection of dead things, but here we are talking about a lively sense of this tradition, our connection with our ancestors, with our small homeland. I know that over the past 25 years, which were associated with the collapse of the Soviet project, many people survived the moment of returning to their homeland, turned to the archives in search of the graves of their great-grandfathers and great-grandmothers, restoring the history of their family. If I personally ask what Holy Russia is for me, then it is where my ancestors lived, where they are buried, where they left some kind of trace,that is, such a cultural image of Holy Russia. It also exists, and it seems to me that it is relevant.

E. Shipova: Cultural and educational then.

- Yes. Pilgrimage, travel, tourism to religious, and not only religious, places that were destroyed yesterday. Thus, I ended up in my father’s homeland, in the city of Bolkhov, where there was another Optina Desert monastery. Not the one that everyone knows, but another, founded by the same robber Optoy, ninety kilometers from Kozelskaya Optina. So when I arrived there, there was one novice in a completely destroyed and murdered monastery. Now he has been restored, the novice has become abbess and gained the relics of St. Makarii Altai, who was buried there. The monastery lives a new life in a city that, unfortunately, does not live a new life. The city has half the population than it was before 1917, 12–13 thousand people. Interestingly, this nun came there from the world, she became a nun by vow. Her son was a drug addict, she worked as a theater director,and she vowed that if her son was healed, she would go to the monastery. And so, an inveterate smoker with indefatigable energy leaves for the hinterland, finds some abandoned abode, revives it, becomes a nun. Here are such examples all the time, there are a lot of them in fact. In this sense, if you take the whole country, then there is a rather curious picture of just such cultural work, whether or not related to religious tradition, because similar projects can be found in absolutely secular space. I find myself in the village of Bobrovskoye in the Vologda region, where again the population is half that of the 18th century, women create a choir there, celebrate a street festival, a village holiday, six teachers hold a school where 11 students study. Proudly reporting the winners of the school Olympiad in St. Petersburg, they saythat while at least one student remains, they will keep the school here. If the school ceases to exist, the village will perish. All this happens absolutely contrary to any local authorities, any representatives of the governor. They rather interfere with them or at best do not help.

A. Firsov: Can I talk about eastern Ukraine briefly?

- Eastern Ukraine, like Ukraine in general, of course, is included in this concept of Holy Russia. Zhukovsky says: "Holy Russia comes from Khreshchatyk." What is Ukraine? This is Little Russia, Little Russia. This is not an appendage to Great Russia, but vice versa. If we say Small Moscow, we imagine the Kremlin, the Garden Ring, and the big Moscow is what is in Troitsk, beyond the MKAD. This is the same here. Little Russia, Ukraine is not the appendix that was stolen, but the very core. Therefore, I do not know how it is possible to think of the concept of Russia without Sophia of Kiev, in the same way as to think without Novgorod, without Pskov. If Ukraine falls under the mythology of Ukraine, if its current pro-Western or, rather, pro-American power does not disappear like a certain obsession, then we will deal with a completely different construct that has nothing to do with Holy Russia.

A. Serditov: At what point in our history were we closer to Holy Russia? How now - how close are we to Holy Russia? Can we merge with Holy Russia, in what composition?

A. Firsov: Who is the “special agent" of the idea of ​​Holy Russia?

E. Shipova: Besides the Orthodox Church?

- After the revolution, we see the theory of Holy Russia contrary to Holy Russia. If we take the poetry of Blok, Voloshin, we will see that it is precisely because you, Rus, are crucified, precisely because you are crucified, precisely because you are stupid, enticing Christ in yourself, and therefore holy. “You are a homeless, strolling, intoxicated, holy Christ in Russia,” writes Max Voloshin in the days of the revolutionary storms of 1917. The concept of “holy Jude” by Leonid Andreev, that is: who is the greatest sinner, that same great righteous man. Judas, because if he had not betrayed Christ, we would not have such a Redeemer.

A. Serditov: That is, it is impossible to put an equal sign between “good Russia” and Holy Russia?

- Sure. The holy and damned here is in the Latin meaning of the word sacrum.

E. Shipova: Doomed.

- Yes, they write a lot about it. Father Sergiy Bulgakov in "Judas Iscariot, the Apostle the Traitor" puts an equal sign between the betrayal of Judah and the betrayal of Russia. Will Judas be saved? If so, then Russia will be saved. Ivan Ilyin very much gangs up on this theological text. But here is this theory of Holy Russia contrary to Russia itself, which is stored somewhere in the background. While in the Orthodox period of Russian history the Slavophiles understand that Orthodoxy is the core of life, this is the pathos of Slavophilism.

And who today is the bearer of the idea of ​​Holy Russia is a very non-trivial question. I dont know.

A. Firsov: Is Holy Russia an individual gesture of political or social action? That is, a person by some act with which he either renounces himself, or makes a certain sacrifice, enters the region of this Kitezh-grad, which is not a building, but such an ideal state. And within the framework of this gesture, he can just join Holy Russia, remaining an empirical person beyond the boundaries of this gesture, with all his sweets and shortcomings. In other words, each person, an individual, can prove himself in an action that makes him an instant citizen of Holy Russia. And then he loses this citizenship.

- I do not know who represents Holy Russia now. Probably, it is worth recalling here such phenomena of Russian culture that are not identified with official or Orthodox officialdom. Such phenomena can be old age, foolishness. Are there any old people, holy fools?

E. Shipova: But now there is a part of the Moscow intelligentsia, a circle of very wealthy people who were leaving, becoming farmers.

- Sterligov?

E. Shipova: Yes. Sterligov, first of all, but he did it under the weight of circumstances. And there is a whole galaxy of people who did this extremely deliberately. Then we come to a certain conditional code of choice, a code of conduct, a code of moral standards. Codex is a description of certain acts that bring you there.

A. Firsov: You can make a good request, a code, a guide for a person who wants to join Holy Russia, some kind of regulation of actions.

E. Shipova: Conditionally: a man went to war in the DPR for the Russian brothers.

D. Chernikov: Beard is just an agent of Holy Russia in the DPR.

- Means, it is necessary to issue the certificate "Defender of Holy Russia".

A. Firsov: When Katya wants to regulate behavior, she returns to the Jewish tradition, because Judaism regulates behavior, considers it sufficient. Accordingly, there will be not Holy Russia, but the promised land, the new Israel. Because it is impossible to regulate and draw up a code for internal motivation, you can simply fix it.

A. Serditov: But you can create a regulation of internal motivation. Maybe you don’t have any motives, and where will they come from then?

E. Shipova: Codex can be used as a mobilizing factor. I understand that this can be perfectly used in the educational process. For young people, this will already have their own share of mobilization, if we use this concept in education and associate it with certain great victories that will make Russia proud.

- By the way, what is called Israel in the church language is precisely the Church, the Kingdom of God on earth. Therefore, the connotate of Israel is present in Holy Russia. Holy Russia is Israel in Russian. Just as there was no Israel - politically, Israel arose after World War II, but spiritually Israel has always been. I think that for the Jews who remained Jews, there is Israel, there is a homeland that, perhaps, is not even localized geographically.

A. Serditov: I would like to nevertheless formulate a concept or concept of Holy Russia more practically. You formulate it, but I think everyone has a different understanding. We will not formulate for an average understanding - it will be difficult to discuss in society.

- How to formulate? It is possible through negation. Take the Constitution of the Russian Federation and simply say that Holy Russia is non-federal, non-legal, non-democratic, non-republican and not a state. That is, to take the path from the contrary.

E. Shipova: Given the wishes under the Constitution to make a reference to the role of Orthodoxy in life.

- And what does it give? Well, there will be a reference to the role of Orthodoxy. Will there be less gays, or something more?

A. Firsov: This makes it possible to introduce some kind of training form, or to finance Orthodoxy by the state, or to find other ways to support it. Alexey (Serditov), ​​and you wanted to get a definition?

A. Serditov: We are talking about a phenomenon that is wider than Orthodoxy, wider than state ideology, wider than national idea. The concept of "Holy Russia" does not require state support, it cannot simply as a phenomenon demand state support. It is always present secretly, hence my conclusion is that it cannot be used as a state ideology or a mobilizing idea.

- Do we need to create a national ideology? We need to describe some entities.

A. Firsov: Is the essence of Holy Russia compatible with turning it into an instrument, concept, and so on?

- The tool generally denies everything. Using Orthodoxy as a tool, we will receive the collapse of historical Orthodoxy in Russia, because it acts, it flourishes where there is some resistance. Where Orthodoxy turns into an officialdom, it’s an empty shiny wrapper, from which there will be no spiritual life, because spiritual life is realized in an atmosphere of resistance. It’s like a ship sailing against the wind. We can, of course, socialize Holy Russia, create an agency for the affairs of Holy Russia, publish a magazine or open a channel, but this will not increase Holy Russia.

E. Shipova: Given the trend in education, the migration of cultural contexts, if this construct is not supported in some way, it will simply disappear in two generations.

- Should artists support, poets, musicians should support. If we think that party officials perform the ideological function, we are mistaken. Our ideological function has always been performed by poets, well, for the last two centuries, for sure.

E. Shipova: They supported, but it merged into some kind of general mechanism for the reproduction of ideology.

- There are, for example, targeted publishing programs. Publish, say, Durylin. Right now, a two-volume edition of Durylin’s prose in St. Petersburg, prepared by my friend Anya Reznichenko, has come out. It is very good, it came out in a small print run, it is sold for 1,500, not everyone can afford it, because the target publishing program does not give money for such publications. I don’t understand what she gives them to. There is a mechanism for supporting magazines and sites. The journal "Orthodox Monasteries" is successfully published. Recall Sokrat magazine, which we started, including with the support of people from the Russian government. Four numbers came out and that’s it. One deputy gave me money and said: "Do you have Solonin participating?"because he was seriously ill. Funding for the publication ceased because it depended on the goodwill of just a few people.

The time when philosophy will be needed has not come. The authorities absolutely do not need a philosophy to develop; it is better to publish “funny pictures”.